UNBOXED – How to leverage your International Women’s Day comms [video]

[00:00:00] Amanda Faull: Hello. Welcome to Unboxed, what Not to Do on International Women's Day. My name's Amanda fall. I'm the de and I communication specialist at 33 for anyone who's new to 33. We are an award-winning employer branding agency, and we're passionate about D&I and you can see that in the communications and artwork we create for some of the world’s biggest brands. 

[00:01:07] Amanda Faull: It's also why we created Unboxed. This is our online event series, so if you didn't join the last one, this is the second of our series where we bring together forward-thinking companies to unbox some of the biggest challenges related to DE and I and employer branding. Which brings me to why we're here today. 

[00:01:27] Amanda Faull: We're looking at why, how organizations should communicate about gender equality. It's a question we're often asked by clients, what should we do on key diversity awareness days? How do we make sure we don't get it wrong? And more importantly, what does a successful campaign look like with International Women's Day behind us? 

[00:01:48] Amanda Faull: I'll be looking at some of this year's activity with my guest speaker, Carol Rosati, the UK D&I lead at GSK to discuss who got it right, what are the ingredients for a successful D&I campaign and how do you put it into practice? Um, this event is being recorded and just to improve your viewing experience. 

[00:02:09] Amanda Faull: Um, if I know this is over lunchtime, so, and you don't have your cameras on, so you can have your lunch or if you have to get up and take a call, we'll be sharing the recording later with you. If you'd like to join in, there is a chat box, I believe to the right of your video player. This is where you can post comments and questions. 

[00:02:29] Amanda Faull: Um, sorry. If you have questions, there is a Q and A section and here you can post anonymously if you don't want us to know who you are. Uh, other audience members can also see your question and they can upvote for their favorite. I do have a lot of questions for our speaker later on in the discussion, uh, but I will look at your questions and try and get to as many as I can in the time that we have together. 

[00:02:54] Amanda Faull: This is what we've got coming up, so you, we've got an hour together. I'll be kicking things off with a brief introduction as to why International Women's Day is important and the challenges that persist for women in the workplace. I'll also look at some of the common pitfalls made on International Women's Day, along with a few examples of what you should. 

[00:03:18] Amanda Faull: Then I'll bring Carol on to join me to discuss how we should be communicating about gender equality and the actions that should align to create change and momentum. I hope today you'll have some practical ideas for your business and some evidence to help you get started. So let's dive in. 

[00:03:42] Amanda Faull: I've got a simple question to start us off with. Why do we celebrate International Women's Day? What are we trying to change? The first Women's Day was in 1910, and now today, international Women's Day is a focal point for the Women's Rights Movement. Some of the key aims for the day is to bring attention to issues related to gender equality, reproductive rights, and violence and abuse against women. 

[00:04:07] Amanda Faull: And we know many organizations use it to promote what they're doing to support women in the workplace, but it's been over a hundred years since that first women's day, and we're still talking about these issues. So what needs to change? Firstly, women are not equal. The UK's gender pay gap stands stubbornly around 15%, and according to PWCs 2023 report, if progress towards gender equality at work continues at its historical rate. 

[00:04:39] Amanda Faull: An 18-year-old woman starting work today will not see pay equality in her working lifetime, which is pretty depressing. The underlying reasons for the gender pay gap are far too complex for me to cover today, but I'll be talking through just a few of the factors that contribute to this in the workplace. 

[00:04:58] Amanda Faull: Firstly, women are underrepresented in the leadership and in higher paying industries such as engineering and tech job functions like finance. So many gender pay gap reports will say that this is one of the reasons that women have a large pay gap. But we know job selection is influenced in childhood and by gender stereotypes. 

[00:05:19] Amanda Faull: We have jobs for boys and jobs for girls and research from the Faucet. Society shows that children's attitudes towards gender are fully formed by the age of seven, and these gender expectations significantly limit children, and they cause problems such as lower self-esteem in girls and poorer reading skills in boys. 

[00:05:38] Amanda Faull: This report found that three quarters of parents say boys and girls are treated differently, and 6 in 10 say this has a negative impact. As and as employers in the session today will know this has a serious impact in future. When we look at labor skills and shortages and when we see women oversubscribed and lower paying functions are those that.. 

[00:06:00] Amanda Faull: don't lead to the boardroom and why we have such an emphasis on the importance of female role models in non-traditional roles. But once in the labor market, women are bypassed by men at the very first hurdle. Further research from McKinsey shows that fewer women rise through the ranks because of the broken rung at the very first step of management. 

[00:06:25] Amanda Faull: I found these statistics pretty, pretty shocking for every hundred men promoted at first level manager, only 87 women are promoted and just 84 women of color. So, it starts a lot earlier than you might expect. And one of the reasons that this might be is because of an issue known as the likability dilemma. 

[00:06:47] Amanda Faull: We have a problem with assertive women. Girls should be sugar and spice and everything nice. Not the qualities we typically associate with leadership such as strong, assertive, competent. There's been a lot of research now to refute the misconception that women don't ask as often as men for pay rises and promotions they do. 

[00:07:11] Amanda Faull: They're just less successful. And again, linking back to this concept of likability dilemma, there's nothing more assertive than asking for a pay rise or negotiating salary in a job interview. So, movements such as lean in can actually backfire and widen this gap for women. So, one of the issues we need to address is stereotypes and bias towards traditional roles for women.. 

[00:07:41] Amanda Faull: And if you've watched the budget and news, you will have heard about the motherhood penalty. This is the significant loss in lifetime earnings experienced by women raising children and has become the most significant driver of the gender pay gap. Women are leaving the workforce due to discrimination or coming back wanting part-time, but not getting it. 

[00:08:02] Amanda Faull: So, accepting positions below their experience and for less pay, or they're changing careers for the flexibility they need. Again, you will have heard that there's a serious underutilization problem in the of female talent within the UK. And we have examples of senior executive women working on shop floors just to get flexibility. 

[00:08:24] Amanda Faull: But again, this is a great opportunity for employers who are seeking female talent. But of course, we need to address the challenges that they face in balancing family life with work life and keeping their seniority and their experience. I've given one example where you could see where some of these challenges are more pronounced for women of color. 

[00:08:47] Amanda Faull: We shouldn't talk about, we shouldn't talk to women like they're all the same women of color face compounding bias because of their race according to research. Looking at experiences of 2000 women of color in workplaces across the UK found institutional racism is common across all sectors and in all types of organizations. 

[00:09:06] Amanda Faull: And this leads to a cumulative negative impact on women of color at work. 75% have experienced racism at work with common examples towards the language or words they use, the topics they talk about, their hairstyle, the food they eat, and even their names. And added to all of that, women also need to worry about their safety inside and outside of the work. 

[00:09:34] Amanda Faull: The TUC found that half of all women have experienced sex sexual harassment at work, half rising to 7 and 10 for disabled women, and one in eight LGBT. Women have experienced serious sexual assault while at work. Their research also found that often these accounts go unreported, as women no complaints are mishandled, 

[00:09:54] Amanda Faull: no actions will be taken or don't even think their bosses will believe. So why am I telling you all of this? This is about International Women's Day, while so many organizations use International Women's Day as a way to promote themselves as a place for women to work. But if you want to persuade women to choose a career with you, you need to be communicating and showing how you're standing up to these challenges. 

[00:10:18] Amanda Faull: An International Women’s Day is a great time to do that, but how do you do it in a meaningful way? that's authentic, that resonates and drives the change that you're hoping to see. And having worked with many clients throughout the years on setting the tone for D&I 33 has put together some of our views on what organizations should avoid and how to leverage communications for impact. 

[00:10:43] Amanda Faull: So, let's start with the common pitfalls. We see organizations make each year. What you shouldn't do is celebrate without sharing your commitments. If anyone has heard if the gender pay chat bot, you will know that adopting the annual slogans without considering what you're doing internally will be called out. 

[00:11:03] Amanda Faull: Transparency is actually welcomed, even if your story isn't the most positive. Candidates and employees will be more receptive to messages about your action plans about what you plan to do. You shouldn't spotlight women without their permission. Yes. International Women's Day is about celebrating women's achievements and recognizing female role models. 

[00:11:28] Amanda Faull: We've helped many clients curate beautiful films and stories or facilitated events featuring women in leadership. But while it might be obvious to the organization why you want to spotlight them in your comms, it may not be for them. So, it's important to gain their consent, explain how and where this will be used and that they feel comfortable saying no. 

[00:11:49] Amanda Faull: I mentioned we did a previous Unboxed event where we talked, and during the session we talked about ethical storytelling in employer branding, and we created a white paper guide on how to empower employees to share their stories. And I believe we've just shared a link, um, where you can download this. 

[00:12:08] Amanda Faull: You shouldn't add to women's workloads without link, uh, without recognition. If you do work with female colleagues when designing your comms or putting together your plans and activities, it's important to give recognition to their efforts. McKinsey's research found that one of the factors for why female leaders leave is because they shoulder responsibilities for D&I on top of their jobs and it's undervalued and means they're stretched too thin for work that is linked to promotions. 

[00:12:40] Amanda Faull: and you shouldn't talk to women like they're all the same. I've already mentioned this before, but it's worth repeating because we're not, and we all have different lived experiences. We need to recognize the intersecting identities. For example, someone's age, ethnicity, sexual orientation, socioeconomic background, whether they're a parent menopausal, transitioning. 

[00:13:02] Amanda Faull: The most important thing is to make sure your messaging is inclusive and finally, you shouldn't make it about one day and move on. This goes without saying that anyone can see through a PR stunt. How often you communicate about gender equality and the presence of female advocates within your communications will be something that future candidates look to to decide if you're genuine. 

[00:13:28] Amanda Faull: So that's a bit of the not so good. Um, here's 33’s views on some of the ways you can leverage your communications for gender equality. Now, you should use the day to launch new initiatives, campaigns, or policies. We've seen and helped many businesses build and launch campaigns to address some of these major challenges. 

[00:13:47] Amanda Faull: And they use International Women's Day as a starting off point to show they're taking it seriously. These campaigns provide a theme or multiple strands where you can continue the conversation throughout the year with regular awareness raising across social media, through your internal events and your internal communications, and building on that you should share your progress from the year before. 

[00:14:14] Amanda Faull: You can use International Women's Day to report back on the progress of those campaigns, how things are going. Again, going back to that transparency and we know what gets measured gets done. So launching with a clear idea of what needs changing gives you that focal point for campaigns and enables you to dial up and target your comms where needed. 

[00:14:38] Amanda Faull: And I've already mentioned this before, you should promote why you're an employer of choice for women. So, if you ever, if you have put in a lot of work to challenge these issues, to implement practices and policies that support women's success, you do have some great stories to tell. Again, International Women's Day is a great time to shout about those and send a reminder to your female colleagues about the benefits you offer. 

[00:15:05] Amanda Faull: and you should have a conversation with women about what they want. This goes back to that you shouldn't talk to women like they're all the same. It's essential to ask for feedback to ensure that the communications and efforts are landing, that they're achieving the desired results, and to ensure, again, that you're speaking to everyone because every woman will have a different lived experience. 

[00:15:26] Amanda Faull: And finally, don't forget about the important role men play in creating an inclusive culture. Include men in your activities speaking about their roles as allies, and help. Help ask them to help source input and feedback from women and to shoulder some of the responsibilities that I already mentioned that are often placed on female colleagues. 

[00:15:48] Amanda Faull: But International Women's Day is one day. It's already come and gone, and we know this is a movement, so it shouldn't just be the one time that companies think about gender issues before settling back into business. As usual, we need to be talking about gender equality every day until women feel truly they have equal opportunities to succeed. 

[00:16:09] Amanda Faull: And so that's a bit about. the why, and a little bit about the how. Now I'd like to introduce my speaker. To join me in a discussion about how we actually tackle some of this and what does it look like from a comms perspective. Uh, I'm delighted to have Carol. Carol has over 25 years’ experience in talent and people management and is a qualified executive coach. 

[00:16:32] Amanda Faull: She's been involved in D&I since 2007, and as a former head hunter, she has worked with chairs and CEOs to promote diversity of thought and inclusive cultures from the boardroom to the shop floor. She has worn many hats and won many awards for her role in championing women in senior leadership, including the highest honor of OBE and the Queen's birthday honors for her services to women. 

[00:16:56] Amanda Faull: Business. I'm incredibly proud to have worked with Carol for a number of years and to call her a friend. So, without further ado, welcome Carol.  

[00:17:06] Carol Rosati: Thanks, Amanda. Me too..  

[00:17:08] Amanda Faull: Again, thank you for joining us today. You're the perfect person to have on to discuss this topic from your background, working within recruitment, with leadership teams and supporting women, and now you're on the inside actually driving culture change at GSK. 

[00:17:24] Amanda Faull: So I'd like to start the conversation because I've been focusing so far on the comms activity. Uh, so we've seen a lot of International Women's Day columns and campaigns going out from organizations across social media this month. Did anything catch your eye?  

[00:17:40] Carol Rosati: Good and bad. Yes. Um, yeah, I mean it was, it is great to see it. 

[00:17:44] Carol Rosati: It's as you know, it's one of my favorite weeks or months cause it does seem to go more than one day. But, um, there, there was some outstanding one’s this year. Um, I think the favorite of mine was, um, an ex-colleague of GSK now works there. It was a female health pharmaceutical company called, uh, Organon, and they gave all of their employees, the day off. 

[00:18:05] Carol Rosati: All of them. Um, and it, it wasn't to give the women a break, um, but it was actually to rather as an initiative to sort of encourage staff to prioritize their health, um, and to think about how they could live healthier lives and how could they, how they could, uh, spend the time making appointments, the ones that you never make, for example. 

[00:18:21] Carol Rosati: Um, which I, which I think is great because it was inclusive. It included everyone, not just the women. Um, Häagen-Dazs actually launched the Rose project, a bursary. To support sort of, um, up and coming trailblazing, unsung women, which I think is great. Um, and then my least favorite, I think, um, they shall remain nameless. 

[00:18:42] Carol Rosati: Uh, a company that actually asked all their female staff to give an example of the worst treatment from a male colleague. Why would you do that? You know, it is, it's so divisive. But that was how they felt best to celebrate International Women's Day.  

[00:18:56] Amanda Faull: What do you do with that? I suppose that feels like something you might want to share in a private survey that you want to change, but it's almost like drudging up trash. 

[00:19:06] Amanda Faull: Yeah. Trauma .  

[00:19:07] Carol Rosati: Yeah. And, and, and really not helpful because, you know, it, it doesn't, it doesn't prove anything. Um, and it doesn't help anything if you ask if you, if you do it to encourage conversation maybe. But as you say, in a private thing, not as a main thing with your International Women Day, celebrations. 

[00:19:23] Carol Rosati: Yeah.  

[00:19:23] Amanda Faull: Crazy. And those were, I guess I, you saw them kind of publicly. Um, they promoted those on their, their channels.  

[00:19:31] Carol Rosati: I think they were taken down pretty quickly. Quite frankly cause it didn't work and it was, it was a really bad thing to do 

[00:19:38] Amanda Faull: Yeah. So we'll come onto that. Cause I think there's probably more examples, um, uh, and this is, today isn't just about looking at the bad, but it's, it's helpful to look at the bad, I suppose, as, as kind of, how can we learn from that? 

[00:19:51] Amanda Faull: Hmm. in terms of those campaigns that seem to, you know, drive change or what we might think are successful, what do you think are some of the ingredients of those campaigns? Not just for International Women's Day, but of course you, you look after D&I. What do you think makes a successful D&I campaign? 

[00:20:10] Carol Rosati: Yeah, I mean, for me it's all about making the light bulbs go on. It's, it's making real changes happen rather than, rather than just talking about it, quite frankly. Um, so there has to. really authentic, visible support from the leadership team. They have to really get it, they have to talk about it with enthusiasm, and they have to really sort of lean in for a corporate way of saying it. 

[00:20:33] Carol Rosati: And I think that they, you know, they, that then cascades down and encourages their people to actually embrace it as well. And then they share it with their teams and so on until it actually gets to the bottom. , there has to be thought provoking, interesting, and intersectionally based events. Um, so that, you know. 

[00:20:54] Carol Rosati: At GSK, one of the things I do is I, I try and make them every single event to be intersectional so it actually appeals to the broadest, um, you know, reach of, of individuals and accessible. And we record them so that people call people on the shop floor, on the production lines, can actually view them in their own time when, when they are actually able to access them. 

[00:21:13] Carol Rosati: Um, but certainly tax to make 'em accessible as well. So people that, um, have impaired site or, or um, or partially deaf or whatever. so that they, so that we can actually reach everyone. Um, and I think that they should. It should, but most importantly, it should be backed up by sustainable change. By sustainable action. 

[00:21:31] Carol Rosati: There's no good, no good promoting these things than just not doing anything with it. And, and it has to be visible. Um, and I think that, and finally sort clearly sign posting how to get to. You know, the support mechanisms, the policies, the resources that everybody wants and needs easily, and to make them, to write them well that they're not full of corporate jargon. 

[00:21:53] Carol Rosati: That, that to me is, is, is first base.  

[00:21:57] Amanda Faull: and that's such a, I mean, I mentioned in my earlier point about, you know, reminding employees about their benefits. I mean, I've worked in lots of organizations and people just have, don't even have a clue that you've got some of these things. And so that kind of point about you can make a song and dance, but you know, has anybody actually opened their employee handbook? 

[00:22:16] Amanda Faull: Do they know what's available to them and use this day to day, to engage internally as well as obviously what you want to say externally  

[00:22:25] Carol Rosati: if you make them real benefits, real benefits that really help people, you know, they, they can be as priceless as your wage. They really can. And, but it's, as you say, it's, it's about making them accessible and getting people to understand what they are. 

[00:22:40] Amanda Faull: Yeah. I, I love what you said there as well about making sure this isn't just kind of a head office. You know, you said that it's important. You have to think about women who work at the whole of your organization, which I suppose for, depending on who, who's watching, they'll, they might have different, you get your head off and head office and you might have, as I said, kind of shop floor. 

[00:23:03] Carol Rosati: So absolutely. Um, we, we can talk about, um, comms later, but certainly in terms of the way that I actually try and outreach is very, very different according to who my audience is. Um, and GSK is huge. It is absolutely enormous. Um, and there are very, very different pockets of different individuals that we have to interact with. 

[00:23:19] Carol Rosati: Very, very different. And that's just the UK. Think globally, it's huge.  

[00:23:24] Amanda Faull: I do have a question on that. So, um, we have to cover off, I mean, you mentioned one example, but this is also about what, what you shouldn't do on International Women's Day. So, um, I did share a few of the common pitfalls that organizations make, uh, when they're thinking about their comms or messaging. 

[00:23:42] Amanda Faull: What are your thoughts on those? What in your experience are the common things organizations tend to get wrong or even what have you experienced yourself? 

[00:23:52] Carol Rosati: I'll take a fifth on that one. Um, I, I was listening as, as you're doing the intro, and certainly, um, I, I was smiling to myself because I, I recognize pretty much all of them. 

[00:24:01] Carol Rosati: Um, but I, I think making women do all the work and not engaging with men at all. Um, and you know, it really shouldn't be a them and us thing. It should be we or just people working together to make it happen. That's, that's the most important one. And, you know, not, not preaching to the converter and having a, having an audience full of women. 

[00:24:18] Carol Rosati: Well, That's pointless. Cause I think they already get it. They already know. Um, so it's actually making your, your, your comms really, really accessible to, and getting people hooked, getting people to understand and, and again, making the light bulb go up. Um, I think it's not doing the fluffy stuff like sending flowers to everyone or chocolates, chocolates is a really bad thing cause we might like chocolate, but it really isn't that good for you. 

[00:24:42] Carol Rosati: Um, and then not changing anything. I mean, that to me that is like, why bother? Might as well not bother at all. Um, the last one is a, a wider thing, not paying female speakers for large events. You know, is, it's, um, I don’t know how many times on LinkedIn this year, I've, I've actually seen people saying, well you can't pay your mortgage, um, with exposure. 

[00:25:05] Carol Rosati: And that is the most common thing that people say, oh, it, it will give you exposure. Well, some people don't need it. Um, but they may, they may well need, or they, they may well, you know, need the money to, to, uh, pay the mortgage. Um, just don't do it unless the person wants to do it for nothing.  

[00:25:21] Amanda Faull: Yeah. Oh, okay. 

[00:25:24] Amanda Faull: um, So, yeah, I mean, I, I, I agree. I think I've seen a few of those examples and, and they get called out. So, I think that's another thing. It's even if you've got a good intention, cause I think a lot of those are good intent, you know, but mm, it's, it's not getting into the hard stuff. I mean, I, I've given a lot of evidence today about those, not saying all of those things are happening in an organization, but the scale of that data tells you. 

[00:25:51] Amanda Faull: at least one woman in your organization will have, or every woman will probably be impacted by at least one of those things during their career. Yeah. Easily , not multiple. No. Um, so you already mentioned a little bit about what GSK has done, but what does International Women's Day mean for GSK and what are some of your, what were some of your key messages this year or in previous years? 

[00:26:13] Carol Rosati: Well, International Women's Day is one day in the rest of the year, and we do use it to celebrate. We, we celebrate globally. There is lots. We've got workplace as a, as a sort of portal that everybody goes onto, and there was so much traffic and for men and women, um, on celebrating success and celebrating what we have done and a call to action. 

[00:26:36] Carol Rosati: Um, now to give you an example of, of the reality of it and what actually happens last. We actually spend a lot of time looking at our family friendly policies as part of International Women's or the, the run up to International Women's Day. And then after it, we totally overhold them. Um, and I, I need to, I need to look at these cuz it's, it's quite a lot. 

[00:26:55] Carol Rosati: So I'll tell you what's actually happened most recently, and you can actually see this on LinkedIn. It's literally just been posted. Um, we increased UK paternity and secondary care giver, uh, lever, sorry, leave, um, from 2 weeks to 18 weeks. Wow. In the first, first year of the child's life. That's the first thing. 

[00:27:14] Carol Rosati: Pretty awesome. We have got a new UK care of family member policy for up to four weeks, paid leave for care of family member for the end-of-life care or serious health emergencies. We've enhanced our UK becoming a parent policy. So, all our, we've looked at maternity adoption, surrogacy share, parental, unpaid parental, and paternity leave. 

[00:27:37] Carol Rosati: Um, and it was previously only available. After you've served at least a year, but now it's from day one. Wow. Regardless, length of service for me. That is, that is stunning. It's really, really important. Um, and the one thing I, I'm really proud of, we, one of my first things when I actually came to GSK is I looked at the, the experience of returning to work, um, from, from maternity or long term, um, sickness. 

[00:28:02] Carol Rosati: Um, and I interviewed loads and loads of people and I, I wrote a long report and suggestions and whatever, and we've totally redesigned it. And what we've done is. We've standardized the process so it doesn't depend on the manager you've got, so people will follow a part a particular outline. Um, so we're trying so that everybody has a positive experience. 

[00:28:21] Carol Rosati: And the nicest thing for me is somebody actually said on a, on a, um, meeting last week, she just returned from maternity from a second time round. And she said how, how great it was second time round. And you think, yeah. Okay. That's impact. That's what you do. Yeah. . Um, and, you know, we we actually challenged Taboo. 

[00:28:39] Carol Rosati: So to, to give you an example, we had this year we had a Thought Provoking Moments the matter event, and it was focusing on the impact of periods on performance, really uncomfortable. But, you know, PE people were really, and again, one of my proudest ones is, um, for, um, menopause Day. Uh, back in October we had our first all mail. 

[00:29:01] Carol Rosati: And it was, it was great. Cause they, they, they shared their lived experience. Um, they asked their wives first, or their partners, um, and, um, they actually talked about how they'd supported their colleagues and they, they, they talked about how hard it was and how, you know, how difficult they'd found it first time round because they didn't know where to go. 

[00:29:18] Carol Rosati: We now have a menopause policy, so it's, it's doing things like that for me that it's all year round and it's working on it.  

[00:29:26] Amanda Faull: Yeah. . And I like the spin you had on that in terms of, you know, men will have worked with female colleagues and, and getting them to share, as you said, their experience of, of, you know, how they were able to support or how they also felt like they couldn't do anything. 

[00:29:44] Amanda Faull: And, and now if you're introducing something new, how that's gonna be helping, um, I mean, all of those, those things that you've just introduced, obviously I, I talked about how important supporting new mothers or obviously returning mothers. Um, and I think incredible the, from day one, because again, I've, I've personally seen that where, you know, you, you want to go for a job, but you ca you, if you're planning your, a new family. 

[00:30:15] Amanda Faull: Exactly limits your opportunities and so you might be stuck. And again, it goes back to the whole pay gap and, you know, women accept roles that they wouldn't normally go for. So Yeah. That's huge. Yeah.  

[00:30:27] Carol Rosati: And you know, as when we work together, you know, I was always harping on about the, um, when you actually engage with women in terms of when they're gonna change their roles, um, it's not a, it's not just about the pay. 

[00:30:39] Carol Rosati: It's about can I still spin all those plates that I need to spin to keep my life? Can you accommodate that? That's so much more important. And you know, I could talk all day about that. But yeah, in, in terms of making it possible for women, particularly to actually continue with their life in a way that they want to continue. 

[00:30:58] Amanda Faull: Yeah. And I suppose policy is on the one hand, but it's, as you said, the kind of management and culture of adopting those. Yeah. Cause I suppose you can attract women because of those great policies, but. Again, speaking from experience, if you've now got a small child and they get sick and you have to like drop your whole life for a week. 

[00:31:21] Amanda Faull: Yeah. Um, having that understanding. Um, you know, cause there's some companies that don't even want to hire women because they just think, I mean, that's a bit old school, but it exists because they think they'll. just disappear with children. Uh, so I guess it's that kind of, again, goes back to actions with, with words, the things that you're saying. 

[00:31:41] Amanda Faull: Exactly. Yeah. Got some great questions coming in too. So, , , scary , no good ones. Um, basically linked to what you've just said, so you're clearly resonating. Um, I. , you talked about leadership and how important they are in, you know, driving change. So let's talk about what's their role in championing and challenging, what sort of messages, activities, should we expect from them? 

[00:32:11] Amanda Faull: Particularly men who sometimes hold their hands up and say, this is about women, you know, should I be talking about this? So, ha. Have you worked with male leaders? I mean, you gave an example, like how did that come about? How did you engage them on that? ,  

[00:32:26] Carol Rosati: uh, it's fundamentally important. It, it, it takes a huge amount of effort to, to make things happen. 

[00:32:31] Carol Rosati: I mean, to, to give you, to give you an idea of what's, again, what's happening at GSK, it might, might help. I mean, when I first started working in the gender space in 2007, um, representation of women on boards were still at single figures, absolutely dire. Um, and you know, now we've reached 40%, but to put it into context, there's still only nine female CEOs in the Foote 100. 

[00:32:54] Carol Rosati: I haven't even reached double figures yet. And, and so many of them in the LA latest report don't have any senior or very few senior female execs. So we still, you know, that's what we've got to, that's what we've got to address. Um, and to use ex uh, GSK as an example, um, and I'm really proud to say when, when Julie Brown takes over as a CFO, in May, we will actually have 50% of our leadership team will be. 

[00:33:24] Carol Rosati: 50 50, a long last. And, you know, our gender pay gap for the first time actually favors women for the first time. Um, but this doesn't happen overnight. It happens over a very long period of time. They have been working for years on this. And to do that, we have aspirational targets that we publish externally. 

[00:33:45] Carol Rosati: and, you know, they hold themselves to account. And this has been happening for years. And you know, the, the latest one is, uh, 45% of female representation at VP level by 2025. Were already at 42% at VP level, but it takes an effort of all of them, all of the leaders and all of the line managers to actually b to buy into. 

[00:34:06] Carol Rosati: It doesn't happen overnight. And I think that the. You know, I, I've spent many, many years as a, as a headhunter and the conversations I've had with people, um, I think one of my, my worst ones was that we've got one at somebody else's turn. Was, was one of the, um, when I was talking about women on board. Wow. 

[00:34:24] Carol Rosati: Um, but thankfully we're not there anymore. And I think people do actually realize that, um, it, it does take everyone to actually buy in to make it happen. Um, and they need, people need to understand. Why they want to do it. It's not just to look good. It's not just to, to say, oh yeah, we've got great representation. 

[00:34:46] Carol Rosati: Because you want, you have to want to have it Yeah. To make it happen. And I think that the, the, the upshot is, you know, if, if you do actually want, um, if you do want to, um, rep represent your customer base or your client base and be able to talk to them and be able to engage with them, and as GSK, as patients, you need to actually be able to reflect. 

[00:35:08] Carol Rosati: If you do want, you have to have diversity of thought to get innovation. It's as simple as that. And if you don't, then you'll die. Your, your company will wither and die eventually. , why wouldn't you have it? Why wouldn't you wanna do it?  

[00:35:22] Amanda Faull: Yeah, it's a competitive advantage. And I, I mean, I, I normally would have some slides on the business case and obviously it will resonate different for different organizations of why, you know, if you're very client facing, you might want to be much more reflective or wherever your location is, or if you're global, you know, there's different drivers for that. 

[00:35:42] Amanda Faull: And then I think the point that you are transparent, I mentioned it earlier. , you know, being publicly transparent about your ambitions and where you are, you know, you put that out in the public domain or if you're legally bound to, as GSK is mm-hmm. , you do need to fix it. , I mean  

[00:36:04] Carol Rosati: Yeah, exactly. You've gotta held yourself to account. 

[00:36:06] Carol Rosati: So, you know, it's, it's, it is a sort of, for me, it's a carrot and stick approach. It really is. And it, and it's hard. It's not easy and it's not fix over.  

[00:36:15] Amanda Faull: and there's other evidence, you know, again, we could talk about younger generation coming up, you know, they expect it and there's a lot of stats to prove that. 

[00:36:22] Amanda Faull: And so eventually the dinosaurs, they will go extinct. And you know, you've gotta either come along or, or go away or you're gonna miss out on, on talent. Um,  

[00:36:33] Carol Rosati: and there is a talent war. There is a real talent war. It's, it's people are voting with their feet and they will not engage with an all rise. It's, it is really interesting. 

[00:36:43] Carol Rosati: That, that, um, we were doing a, we were the internship program. Um, I was part of it this year to do the interviews as opposed to being an intern. And, um, diversity and inclusion was actually the most favorite thing that people cited. Yeah. I mean, I'm biased, but you know, it's, it's great because it, it really does mean that they really are thinking about it before they even join an organization. 

[00:37:06] Amanda Faull: Yeah. And that's huge. So again, I think that speaks for talent coming into GSK. And, and again, we've seen reports that say that, and that just proves that that point. Um, I have a question, but it's, it's also one I think, kind of addressed by somebody who's asked in the, the audience. I think it's this point about, you know, not talking to women like they're all the same and making sure our international Women's day coms and activities are inclusive. 

[00:37:34] Amanda Faull: So I'd like to understand how you do that. And the, the question from the audience is also could, if you could share some examples of the kind of intersectional events you've run. What does that mean? How does that, that look?  

[00:37:47] Carol Rosati: Um, , goodness me, there's, there's so many examples. It's, it's, I mean, for example, when we, when we host a, well last year when we hosted a, um, one of our first International Women's Day events, um, we had a panel and they were talking about, um, uh, goodness, equity and equality and the difference between the two. 

[00:38:09] Carol Rosati: And we had, um, obviously women on the panel. We had a, um, a man. We had a gay guy. We had just, just different things and, and we, we actually had, um, a disabled individual who we, we were talking about how to make things accessible, um, because we wanted to see it from all angles. What, what does equality mean? 

[00:38:30] Carol Rosati: What does equity mean? Um, and it means different things to different people. Obviously it does, but it, we wanted to be inclusive of every. So even though it was an International Women's Day event, we wanted to make it inclusive for all. Um, and I think that ensures you have a broader understanding of d e I as a whole. 

[00:38:50] Carol Rosati: Um, and I, I always say I know that when I, when we worked together, I actually stopped talking about diversity quite early on when I started my, my this journey. And I talked about inclusion because then there's something in it for everyone. as opposed to when you talk about diversity, then people can get resentful if they don't feel included. 

[00:39:10] Amanda Faull: And I think it's the loaded definition of diversity. I think it's very visual. , whereas it's so much more about identity and kind of the things that make up your experience. That, and a lot of the hidden, um, diversity that, you know, again, is, is being, getting a lot more media attention, like neurodiversity your socioeconomic background. 

[00:39:34] Amanda Faull: Um,  

[00:39:34] Carol Rosati: that's so funny. You are still in my brain after all these years. Um, , they, uh, yeah, because I, those are two of the projects that I'm focusing on this. , it's part of my UK strategy this year because the, um, again, GSK is huge and there are pros and cons to that because they do do a lot, but sometimes it's quite all over the place. 

[00:39:53] Carol Rosati: So I'm actually doing two projects this year in terms of looking at both of those to make sure that we are actually doing all we can and all we do and can we do better?  

[00:40:01] Amanda Faull: Yeah, yeah. Well, okay. That leads me on really nicely then. Um, you know, again, when you look at probably your remit and it cover. The whole spectrum of diversity. 

[00:40:15] Amanda Faull: You know, international Women's Day, for example, is, is just one element of a key awareness day. Mm-hmm. , how do you ensure an equal focus on the challenges faced by all these other underrepresented groups? What does an annual D N I comms strategy look like and. Again, how do you, who do you work with on this to ensure that it's successful? 

[00:40:35] Amanda Faull: Cause you're one person, you know, and this is a large organization. How do you, I guess, implement this in, unless you do , I'm not the inside, you know, we're here to help support, um, in, in the creation and thinking, but, you know, how do you manage that? Yeah. At  

[00:40:54] Carol Rosati: that scale? Um, well, interestingly, again, one of my, I've got four pillars in my strategy this year, and one of them is, Um, Because it is huge and you've gotta get it right and it is gotta be very remeasured. 

[00:41:07] Carol Rosati: And so what I do is we, we actually, um, started right at the year and we mapped out what the main events were for the year, and there's gold events throughout the year for, for each of the employee resource groups, the ERGs that we've got. Um, so you've got, um, obviously. International Women's Day, you've got, um, pride, uh, you've got, uh, black History Month, and then you've got people with disabilities in December. 

[00:41:28] Carol Rosati: And we wanted to make sure that obviously we touchpoint, this is the UK only, but then we have to actually link it into the Global comm strategy as well, which is even more complex. Um, so we made sure that we, uh, planned the comms for those and leading up to it, but then what we actually did is we mapped all of the, um, allied events for want of a better way of putting it for, for those particular. 

[00:41:49] Carol Rosati: To make sure that they weren't overshadowed. So, you know, we, we've just had, um, yesterday was, um, yesterday already? Yeah, yesterday. And we've just had the, um, first supported internship, um, day, uh, yesterday. And obviously that is part of, um, uh, the, the disability e r g. They wanted to, to make sure that we, um, had cons. 

[00:42:12] Carol Rosati: Uh, we also have Cynical Project Search, which has been over 10 years, and it offers interns for a whole year, uh, within GSK, um, for those with learning disabilities. Um, and so we, we got tho th those individuals involved in it as well. So what we do is we make sure that yes, we've got the key points, but we actually map it right at the start. 

[00:42:33] Carol Rosati: So we've got. Coms that progresses throughout the year. But what we do do is we make sure that we use the correct channels so we can have some. Big comms, super comms that, that everybody hears of. But all I wanted to do was, was make, was to show off a bit more, I guess externally with GSK, because they don't, they're very, very private. 

[00:42:55] Carol Rosati: They're very, they, they're quite considered with what they put out. Uh, but they do a huge amount, masses amount. But I feel that if you are working for an organization, you want to see how they're represented externally. And you learn an awful lot about your organization by the way that they do. Yeah, so for me it's really important to have a, um, both an internal external com strategy that, that sort of interlinks, but use your ERGs to make sure that they're happy with the coms that are going out. 

[00:43:22] Amanda Faull: Yeah. It's very complex, but so important as you said. I mean, again, we work employer branding, so we're very aware of the importance of having those two messages resonate, and they do different things. And we often see there's a lot of great things that happen in an organization, but as you said, they don't talk about it externally. 

[00:43:42] Amanda Faull: Um, but it's that juggling act because I suppose a lot of that it's how far in advance do you have to plan for certain things. Mm-hmm. , yes, there's the setting of the calendar, but big hits like that probably take months to, to organize plans.  

[00:43:57] Carol Rosati: So months and months. Yeah, absolutely. Um, and that's only one element of what we. 

[00:44:03] Carol Rosati: So it's, it's hugely complex.  

[00:44:05] Amanda Faull: Yeah. And so important to lean on all of those different stakeholders. And I suppose you work with internal comms and, and marketing and. .  

[00:44:15] Carol Rosati: We do. We, um, we, but I also, I also take it to the country exec board. So I take the calendar to the exec board and I tell them about the events that are coming up so that they're informed and our site directors and leaders and and senior leaders throughout the organiz organization, they can talk about them and they can attend and they can show, you know, show up basical. 

[00:44:37] Amanda Faull: Yeah. And that's brilliant cuz I think, again, I mentioned how important it is to not just have the one hit. I think it's, it's that continuous and if you have, I suppose, an intranet or if you've got, um, you know, internal stories that you share, those are things that can have a steady kind of rhythm throughout the year. 

[00:44:56] Amanda Faull: Yeah. And  

[00:44:57] Carol Rosati: it's planned so you're not, you're not scrabbling. Cause I, as you know, I don't like scrabbling. So, Yeah. .  

[00:45:04] Amanda Faull: Um, I. I have another question I guess to just kind of throw, throw at you in terms of, you know, using these comms throughout the year, have you ever experienced any resistance or challenge to the messages or activities? 

[00:45:20] Amanda Faull: Um, around d n I? It doesn't have to necessarily be at GSK, but just, um,  

[00:45:29] Carol Rosati: yeah, I guess so. But then I was just on it a. Because I want to understand why somebody's resistant or why, why it hasn't landed. Um, because I, I would never, ever put something out that would be rude, offensive, or, or want to hurt somebody in any way. 

[00:45:43] Carol Rosati: Might, might wanna challenge them, but I wouldn't wanna hurt them. Um, I don't think I've ever really mortally offended anyone. Um, I have been trolled on Twitter before about International Women's Day. Um,  

[00:45:55] Amanda Faull: I think we all have 

[00:46:00] Carol Rosati: I hopefully answered in a polite fashion. Um, but, but it's, for me, it's, it's getting to know why. And I, you know, I, I, I really, you wouldn't be a head hunter for 20 odd years if you didn't like people. And I'm endlessly curious about them because sometimes people react in a way that you don't. Um, and I just wanna know why. 

[00:46:19] Carol Rosati: And then I'm, I'm quite happy to have a conversation with someone. And by doing that, um, I started my career in customer service and I was always taught that you let them speak until they actually get to the top of the mountain and then you can actually engage when they're coming down the other side. 

[00:46:32] Carol Rosati: So true. Yeah, just. Off you go. You know, just, just talk as long as you want to. And then we'll have a measured conversation. ,  

[00:46:42] Amanda Faull: it's like once they're tired, they've brought out of oxygen,  

[00:46:44] Carol Rosati: run out steam a bit. Yeah. They to breathe 

[00:46:49] Amanda Faull: Um, I guess that I, I, that kind of links to what ano another audience member has asked, you know, how do you manage taboo topics and how do you mo moderate that conversation? 

[00:47:03] Carol Rosati: Lots of planning, uh, like with the, you know, with the, with the period conversation or the, the, the menopause conversation. Those, those are the two, I think that, that stand out because they were very different. Um, and they were kind of uncharted territory. Um, yes, we'd, we'd had menopause days before, but it was first time that would actually engaged a lot more with men. 

[00:47:23] Carol Rosati: Um, and , I always find the best way to do it is to talk to the men. You know, it's, it is, Does it make you feel anxious? Are you, you know, what, what do you expect? What do you want to gain from it? What don't, not what don't, you know, but what would you like to learn more about? And by talking then you get some cracking ideas that you haven't even thought of because you're not seeing it, you know, you don't see it from their point of view with their lift experience. 

[00:47:49] Carol Rosati: So we, it does take a lot of planning and, but we are adamant that we are gonna, we are gonna do them. We are gonna, and you know, we, we, one of the things that we, we did. We did an awful lot around pregnancy last, last year as well. Um, we signed, we got GSK signed up to the Menopause pledge and to the pregnancy loss pledge. 

[00:48:11] Carol Rosati: Um, we've got policies now and we also have free sanitary, free ven ry products in the, in the toilets, in the restrooms, as you would say. Um, and, uh, um, that's a good thing, right? I mean, yeah, it's, it's, it's a small thing that is really, really important. Um, but we have to have comms. and there was slightly squeamish people and there was, there were slightly sort of, uh, but once they understood why it was okay, that's a really good idea. 

[00:48:39] Carol Rosati: And accept  

[00:48:41] Amanda Faull: what you said there about, you know, asking questions of men first, you know, getting them to feel involved rather than just announcing things, doing things, you know, I think getting their, their viewpoint because at the end of the day, you know, it's, , you know, them being supportive of some of these initiatives as well and understanding, and they will be experiencing this from a partner's perspective, or again, as a manager of a colleague. 

[00:49:09] Amanda Faull: So getting them involved early, that's, um, that's a really good, you know, way of doing that rather than just having it done to people. It's, yeah. How do you bring them along?  

[00:49:19] Carol Rosati: Yeah. And one of my colleagues that I've been now been working with for, what, 21. , he blushed to the roots of his hair when we started talking about periods. 

[00:49:28] Carol Rosati: And you think, okay, . Um, and I took it offline and cause it was during a meeting that, a planning meeting fully enough and I took it offline and spoke to him afterwards. Um, but you know, once we had the conversation, he was a bit more at ease. So, yeah.  

[00:49:43] Amanda Faull: Um, I've, oh, this is a good question from the audience. 

[00:49:46] Amanda Faull: How do you work with your talent attraction colleagues to make sure that d and i is embedded across all of their activit? So I think this goes back to obviously you're doing all this great work in the organization, you've said about external comms, but then so much of this is about how do we bring in female, female colleagues. 

[00:50:04] Amanda Faull: So how does that translate into the talent attraction  

[00:50:08] Carol Rosati: piece? Well, as you can imagine, having been a head hunter, it never kind of gets out from under you and you are kind of still obsessed by it. Um, so that was one of the first areas that I went to when I joined because, um, GSK has a whole function in terms of talent management, is separate from hr. 

[00:50:26] Carol Rosati: Um, and I have a counterpart in talent management, and she is, she's got d and i in her title as well, and we speak every day, literally every day. And it's great because we, you know, we work really, really closely together to, when we talk about this ad nauseum, um, I'm sure people get really, really bored, but we, we just talk about how we can attract people. 

[00:50:48] Carol Rosati: How, and, you know, is this gonna land? Is this authentic? Do we, what people are ask? And the good thing for me is I keep asking her, what are people asking for? Yeah. When, you know, at the start of the journey, when people are actually going to the job, just way to understand Exactly. You know, are we hitting the mark? 

[00:51:03] Carol Rosati: Are we getting it right? What do we need to do more? , what do we need to tell the story of even, um, so I, I write quite a lot of stuff for her boards. Um, but I am always, always authentic. Always. Yeah.  

[00:51:17] Amanda Faull: So there's a, an important relationship between d and i, people at the organization and talent attraction, if there's, yeah. 

[00:51:25] Carol Rosati: Yeah. And we kind of acted to the bridge really, between talent management and HR and the rest of the business.  

[00:51:32] Amanda Faull: Because I think there's that dynamic of whose role is what, but obviously D and i, it's part of everything in the business. So you've gotta be involved and have a relationship with all those, my fingers in every pie. 

[00:51:45] Amanda Faull: you're greedy.  

[00:51:46] Carol Rosati: Really? No.  

[00:51:48] Amanda Faull: Um, This is a, I know I'm going to the audience, but they've got better questions than me. So, , , um, and everyone's anonymous. Nobody wants to put their hands up today. Uh, d and i comms can sometimes be very complicated, and as you said, organizations often get them wrong. What review and sign off processes do you have internally to avoid such mistakes? 

[00:52:11] Amanda Faull: This was kind, I did have a question that was a bit like this. Who needs to be involved in. Planning those columns and who has sign off?  

[00:52:19] Carol Rosati: Um, it depends what it is. Absolutely depends on, on what the subject matter is, what the, um, what the reach is, um, and how, you know, every, every day things we've got workplace. 

[00:52:32] Carol Rosati: So I, I do all sorts of posting on there in terms of, um, highlighting major events or minor events even. Um, or if I've read an article, I can put it on there or what, so there's no need for sign off if it's. If it's something more major, um, then it goes right the way through to the legal team. Okay. So, and you can imagine there are quite a few hoops to go through before it actually gets published. 

[00:52:59] Carol Rosati: Whatever it is gets  

[00:53:00] Amanda Faull: published. I imagine any of those policies that you want to get signed off, that had to go through quite a long process. And if you want to do any sort of campaign that's making a statement around, you one of these challenges alongside something you've implemented?  

[00:53:18] Carol Rosati: Yeah, and it's, you know, I mean, it's challenging sometimes because then you've got the global aspect. 

[00:53:23] Carol Rosati: So even though I, I, I'm UK, d e i, um, a lot of what I do impacts the UK plc, which is global. So, um, you know, and, and I, I work with the global teams to, to ensure that the, the, the messaging has the same sort of flavor. .  

[00:53:43] Amanda Faull: And on that point, I suppose, you know, some of the different countries that GSK will be working in will have different cultural legal , um, completely differences for diversity. 

[00:53:57] Amanda Faull: How do you take, I guess, what does that look like in terms of spreading a message in internationally and working with those colleagues? What can you provide them? . How does that, how does that work? What is the kind of  

[00:54:14] Carol Rosati: slicing Indicting, yeah, , , uh, it's, it's difficult because we, um, if I post anything major on, uh, on bu, which is the, which is the d e I stream on workplace, on the internet, um, I will always say this is for u the UK audience so that this people can still read it probably. 

[00:54:35] Carol Rosati: Um, but even, even something as simple as, um, the menopause. Or miscarriage policy. Um, you've gotta be really, really careful in, in terms of employment law and whatever for what each, whichever country that you are actually working with. But what what I do do is I work really, really closely with all the di leads of all the other countries, and we share, we share knowledge so that, um, if they, if the US for example, want to, um, want to do a piece on periods, for example, then um, they can use it if they wish, but they, they might sort of, To have US language English in it as opposed to UK language. 

[00:55:11] Carol Rosati: So we do share, but we are very, very mindful of legislation in each country. Particularly for the g lgbtq  

[00:55:18] Amanda Faull: community, very difficult to make a one culture when actually you've got many different cultures within an organization.  

[00:55:24] Carol Rosati: Yeah. It's impossible. You can have a, you can have, we, uh, GSK, we've got something called the code and you, you actually sign up to it and, and that is d e i based absolutely, fundamentally, and it's behaviors and it's the values and how you actually, um, operate. 

[00:55:36] Carol Rosati: So yeah, you've got that globally. But in terms of policies, it's uk, sorry, it's country based.  

[00:55:42] Amanda Faull: Okay. That makes sense. . Okay. Well one, I know we're getting close to time, but mm-hmm. , one thing we haven't, we haven't touched on was, um, and maybe it's a quick answer, but measuring the success of these. You know, so  

[00:55:58] Carol Rosati: I, yeah, 

[00:56:00] Carol Rosati: How do you measure if it's been successful? Your female staff stay 

[00:56:06] Carol Rosati: or they leave? If its be very good 

[00:56:14] Carol Rosati: It never ceases to amaze me. It really isn't that difficult. If people walk with their feet, you know, you've got it. So, um, and if you don't even sadder, if you've actually had people or, um, women that have actually been with your organization for years and then they leave, when they become a leader, it means they've had enough. 

[00:56:31] Carol Rosati: You know, and it means that their journey has not been a pleasant one, basically. So for me, key to all, as I said before, key to all, is actually talking to people. It's, no, it is no good having surveys every five minutes, talk to. Let them share their experience. You know, you will learn so much more. And, and this goes for not, not just women, it goes for every, every diversity strain if you actually engage with the individuals that you actually want to retain and, and, and, and nurture and actually make successful talk to them. 

[00:57:02] Carol Rosati: Simple. Yeah.  

[00:57:04] Amanda Faull: Okay. There we go. Um, I've got time for one more question and then I think we'll have to wrap up cause it's nearly one. When it comes to d and i comms, how can we find the right balance between celebrating and challenging? I think good question. There's the emotion of women's achievements and then there's the nitty gritty of all the things I've just talked about that need to change. 

[00:57:27] Amanda Faull: So yeah, how do you find that balance?  

[00:57:30] Carol Rosati: Um, that's a really interesting question because, um, It is really, really hard to turn people off and quite hard to turn them on when it, when it comes to talking about challenging stuff and inequality. Um, and you know me well, Amanda, I mean, I, I tend to use humor quite a lot because it's, it's the easiest, it's a softening way of, of really making quite hard points, quite difficult points, but actually doing it without harm. 

[00:57:56] Carol Rosati: Um, and I think that the, for me, you do need to celebrate. We have come a long way. We have, you know, and, and I think women are quite formidable and actually marvelous, but the, um, you know, so are men. It's not just that it shouldn't be them and us, it should be we. Um, and it, it isn't, I don't cel celebrate one kind of person to detract from the other. 

[00:58:18] Carol Rosati: That's not the way to do it, as I said right at the start. Um, but it's all about. , celebrating, enhancing, and pushing forward. But in terms of the challenging, why shouldn't we challenge? But to your point that you made earlier in terms of we don't like, um, aggressive women, um, or bossy women, was the other one that people used to use, which used to really hack me off. 

[00:58:39] Carol Rosati: Um, it's actually. Being open and transparent and having the dialogue all the time, continually, it's not doing it once a year. It's not, it's not sort of going ooh, and then doing nothing for the rest of the year. It's, it's day by day. Um, and you know, as you know, I, I called Inspire My Little Steps campaign, and that's it. 

[00:58:59] Carol Rosati: It, it takes an awful lot of effort to go quite a small way, but you've got to do it day after day. Um, but in a non, non-aggressive way.  

[00:59:10] Amanda Faull: and not those just big campaigns. It's that continuous colleagues supporting other colleagues, managers calling things out. So yeah, speaking another session itself. . Oh yeah, 

[00:59:22] Amanda Faull: Absolutely. Um, well I think that's, that's a, a nice way to wrap up. Um, and, uh, we're almost bang on time, so Carol just thank you so much for sharing all of your thoughts and experience A big thank you from 33 for joining us today. There's so much in there that I that you said that I love, you know from, you know it needs to be about light bulbs turning on and obviously what you've just said, it's not an Us and Them it's a we and you know focusing on that, but not being afraid to also challenge. So yeah, really really appreciate everything and for everyone who's still tuning in and hasn't run off for lunch. As I said, this is this was recorded. So we'll be sharing this later. This week and we'll also be putting together a white paper about how all of this great thought leadership how you communicate about gender equality. So, keep an eye out for that next month. And finally, if you do need some help around your D&I csomm strategy or planning a future campaign. Please do get in touch with 33. We'd love to help so that's all for today and see you next time. Thank you. Bye.